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Simon Young has done the steep bulge to the right of Remembrance, which has some great climbing on steep water washed rock:

★★ 3. V 17m 25
A fun little sport climb starting 5m R of Remembrance and climbing to the same anchor. Climb up and into shallow R facing corner, continue up to steep bulge. Jugs lead to good side-pulls on the face above. Head up and R before stepping back L to lower-off. Bestest 25 on the buttress.
Simon Young, Jan 2013

Number 3 in the topo below:

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97 Comments

  1. Still awaits the obvious link straight into pugacious for a classic 45m pitch! Still a great sport route, safe and convenient and well worth a look!

  2. Jon Nermut AUTHOR

    Roger Parkyn on his new route at Table Mountain - Under The Table (23). Photo Jed Parkes.

    ★★ Under The Table 20m 23
    Up the face to the small roof and through this. Crux at the third bolt (22, go rightwards slightly) and then passing the roof (23). 7 bolts to a DBB. Note: currently the bolts are not fully tightened as the intention is to replace them with U's; take care in the meantime.
    Roger Parkyn, Elizabeth Oh, Jed Parkes. Jan 2013.

  3. Say Jon–not sure if it is because I'm on a Mac, but I can't seem to access many of the pages–for example, Larks Edge page just comes up 

    blank. And some of the other pages just seem to blank as well (And this text editor acts funny too).  Thesarvo has always been slow to load on a mac, but with Confluence 4.3, it's really slow.

    Also, the link to the downloadable books in Lulu seems to be broken.  When I went to the Lulu site and typed in jnermut, I saw the bouldering guides and the Mountain guides, but not the general Tasmanian guides.

     

    FYI

    1. Jon Nermut AUTHOR

      Thanks for letting me know. The problem with larks edge and other pages was some dud data, should be fixed now. Slow loading - not sure. I use chrome on a mac and its ok. 

      Will look into whats going on with lulu and the PDFs. Well and truly time I regenerated them but just another thing on my to do list.

  4. No It's not your Mac John, I use a PC and the Larks Edge guide seems to have disappeared!

  5. I added a new climb the other day when I visited the Corra Linn area:

     

    3. * Affecting crucifixion 13m 22

    Ascends the front face between JCP and Stanley Pub, joining JCP near the top. Great moves, but quite a committing crux... bomber gear comes at each horizontal! 

    Hamish Jackson, Shumita Joseph 1/1/13

     

    Also: I suggest changing the description of crystal laces as follows:

    "On the downstream end of the buttress...”

    Change to:

    “On the upstream end of the buttress...”

     

    It’s already easy to find Crystal Laces if you’re online with the topo, but confusion can arise from this error if using the thesarvo app where there is no topo. 

  6. Jon Nermut AUTHOR

    Finished another 2 pitch route left of Remembrance which takes the nice looking arete which is pretty obvious when you are up there on Remembrance. Dunno about the grade, thought it was 23 but then felt easier today with the moves wired.

    ★★ 45. Peregrine 48m 22/23 Þ
    Start 5m down and left from Roast Chicken and Remembrance.
    1. 28m 21 A back-to-basics pitch that starts with some hollow flakes, then some nice face climbing, until you end up on a ledge with a Hakea. From here do a move around left to find the belay. A small cam or wire adds some extra protection for the last move. 9 bolts.
    2. 20m 22/23 Get what you came for - step left and climb the great technical arete. 10 bolts.
    Dave Humphries, Jon Nermut (alt), Feb 2013.

  7. A new all trad route on Flange buttress.
    The Kundalini Flow 26 50m
    Starts up crack of 'big sticks and beatings' for 5m then follow Neon God'
    for the rest of the route. A more challenging and committing version of Neon God. Avoid looking at the rings (smile)
    FA Adam Donoghue Feb 2013

    1. Jon Nermut AUTHOR

      Nice one Adam. Is it new climbing or climbing NG without the bolts? Impressive either way.

  8. Its a bit of a variant to neon god really.  The protectable obvious start is the thin crack 1.5m to the right of neon god start, you come back into neon god at 3rd bolt.  I did it on a single rope so doesn't stray too far from neon god. Its a pretty unlikely looking trad route but the gear comes together pretty well overall.

  9. Jon Nermut AUTHOR

    Gerry Narkowicz's daughter Jemimah has done a new route at Tea Pot Rocks at South Sister 

    Gerry has also contributed a bunch of topos to the area, check them out.

    ★★ 69. Leap Of Faith  27m  19  8Þ
    Bolted arete on the far right of the amphitheatre, right of Big Bang Theory and Tea Pot Crack. Pleasant technical face climbing left of the arete with some big holds and not so big holds. For short people, two leaps of faith are required, one to get off the ledge at the bottom and one higher up the route. 8 bolts.
    Jemimah Narkowicz 17/2/13

     

    1. Good job Jemimah! And just like that, Gerry's teenage daughter becomes the most active female sport climber in Tasmania.

  10. New one at the Paradiso, awesome climbing thats less cruxy and more sustained than other routes at this grade. Enjoy!

    Sac de le Douche, 145m 25

    Starts 4m L of Offender, up past roof through crux bulge. Clip U on offender(long runner) and head up and L through next bulge. Continue up and L through final headwall guarding the chains. Quality climbing the whole way. (would only be 25m on the mainland (wink))

  11. Jon Nermut AUTHOR

    Theres plenty more new routes going up on the pipes. 

    This one from Tony yesterday:

    Death Rattle       16           42m

    Walk about 50m north (right) from the junction of the Great Tier and the new Central Buttress track, passing under a massive triangular overhang up high, to the foot of a small sub buttress. The route climbs the sharp fin of rock. Gets a star in our book for the magic finishing crack, classic Pipes climbing.

    1. 16 30m Start with either the short, angular chimney on L or the nose to the steep fin which is climbed direct. Belay on ledge.
    2. 16 12m Ignore the leering off width above  and climb the hand crack instead round on the L, starting behind the hakea. Lovely jubbly and even better now the rattling block has departed in a cloud of shrapnel.

    T. McKenny, A. Beech, March 2013.

     

    Dave and I finished the first part of another route on Central Buttress, that may one day right to the top:

    ★★ 44. Heat 46m 21 Þ
    Start down to the R of Acid Test on the next buttress.
    1. 18m 21 Up the face easily until the crux between the 3rd and 5th bolt, continue up to a large ledge and DBB. 7 bolts.
    2. 28m 21 Step R from the belay into the black streak. Nice climbing until that runs out, then head left to a ledge and the arete above it, to finish at a DBB. 11 bolts.
    There is potential for more pitches above.
    D. Humphries, J. Nermut, March 2013.

     

    Also today Roger Parkyn did a new grade 23 sport route on Flange Buttress:

    ★★ 9. Train of Thought 24m 23
    Climb the wall left of Bert's Fear, starting at the base of the Bert's Fear chimney. There is thin crux at the second U and then a pumpy hike to the top (all sport). The bulge at about three-quarter height provides a second crux; it is passed slightly right of center (where the U is).
    Roger Parkyn; Owen Gervasoni. Mar 2013.

     

    Hamish Jackson has done a few new routes on Bulging and Flange, details also to come.

  12. Unfortunately one/two of the new routes is on the piece of rock as Train of Thought - same line, quite a differnt climb. I mentioned this route to Jon a few weeks back and he recommeded I write them up with a photo topo included (which was good advice I must add). I haven't had time to get back up there for a photo so had delayed writing up the route. Here are the descriptions of the climbs we did on the wall left of Bert Fear I wrote three weeks back:

    Spittoon 25m 22**

    Sustained climbing up the white face and small roofs right of Spitters; not bolted to maintain the bold trad theme of this wall. Requires specific gear as noted:

     Start at  Bert's fear and place a good wire 2m up then traverse left to small ledge in the middle of the face. Place size blue metolius master cam (0.3 camalot) in the small pocket then boldly up through overlap to a size 5 smiley stopper (#5 BD micro stopper also works OK, #4 may work slightly better) - both pieces of gear were tested with lead falls. Good small and medium cams are found below black rooflet , then great moves through this and finish up wall above. Abseil from fixed slings. 

     Alternative finish 'Bert's butter menthol' 30m 24*** 

    Sensational moves through the right end of the roof (a very good size   #5 RP  is hidden in crack 50cm aboveRH end of rooflet). Up thin crack to finish at ledge- walk left to slings.  

     

    Hamish Jackson and Tim Smith (alt lead/team effort) 

    I have tried to contact Roger to discuss this incident, it obviously raises a number of issues and questions. We will discuss what the best approach will be, together. Roger was probably unaware of our efforts, although I must say I am quite surprised he didn't notice the evidence of our rather extensive cleaning efforts. The bigger issue is placement of bolts where natural gear is adequate. This is a widespread issue for the organ pipes where we are trying to maintain both sport and trad climbing on the same cliff. In this case the climbs were bold, but very safe, done on natural.

      

    Bulging Buttress:

    Equipoise 35m 23**

  13. Can't see why the trad line and the sport line can't coexist ? (i know which one is going to get more traffic though)

  14. That sounds like the line I looked up at more than once hamish. i think i'd rather a good bold trad route if it is amply protected more than another dolerite sport route.

    In my mind however this proves that the FA party doesn't have the final say, as just because you climbed it first, doesn't mean you know how to fit that route in best with the local ethics etc. No when we ask the FA which team do we ask, as they both had the FA thought process and came to a conclusion at different end of the spectrum. I kind of think that i would have rather it bolt free. Theres a lot of convenient climbing on that crag, but few good routes in this style/grade range i think. More and more I'm starting to think climbing shouldn't be a process of going out to tick another route, some things need to be saved. I like the idea of scary routes that not everyone can climb, elitist maybe, but there needs to be something left to aspire too!

    (I assume gear was placed on lead for the ascent?)

     

  15. The gear was placed on lead but not before we made sure the sequences worked and the gear was adequate on top rope several times with testing of a couple of key pieces with simulated factor 2 falls - we initially went in with the idea that we may have had to put a bolt or two in to make it more appealing but after thorough inspection we found secure placements at really quite reasonable spacing. There are not many facey routes at this grade on gear on the mountain so we are pretty excited about the way it came up. On the third route that Hamish has listed we had to place one bolt but the outcome is certainly a good balance between maintaining a style while also being mindful of safety and the risk appetite for future ascentionsts.

    Simon I am glad that you say that you would like to see more of this style of climbing preserved.

    Jed it is somewhat of a moot point as to which route gets more traffic, where will the oportunities for this type of climbing be if the default position is to be accessible to those who don't wish to climb with gear. Co-existance means that sometimes the choice will have to be to preserve some of these walls for non-sport climbing (and by this I mean pure trad lines and mainly trad lines with occasional fixed protection where no other options exist). Often people will say just don't clip the bolts but that really shows no deference to those who would like the opportunity to climb without. It would be analagous to going to a sport climbing area, manufacturing a gear placement and saying don't use it as a hold.

    I don't wish to start some kind of over-zealous debate but what I will say is what should we do when this happens? In this instance they may not be exactly the same lines, as Simon accurately said both first ascentionists were coming at the same problem from different starting points, and I am certainly not trying to villify anyone. But what do we then do - this is why I think that it is important to establish some kind of conflict resolution strategy as part of the code of conduct (yes I am slowly getting there between work and not wanting to be on a computer any more than necessary).

    1. Great to see more new routes going up. This is another example that there is still lots more to do on the Organ Pipes, with plenty of room for committing trad routes. Also, great to see specific mention of pieces needed on a route where the gear may be tricky - I guess. Makes it easier to do a beta/red point whatever you call it sort of ascent. Onsight not possible now of course, unless you don't look at a guidebook or get beta beforehand.

      Tim, I'm interested in the "simulated factor two falls"? How does this work? Were they actually factor two falls taken by a climber, or have you tied a bag of rocks on to the rope and dropped it off? Also you say that "On the third route that Hamish has listed we had (note: my bold) to place one bolt but the outcome is certainly a good balance between maintaining a style while also being mindful of safety and the risk appetite for future ascensionists". I know this is hair-splitting of a nature that some are not capable of understanding, but wouldn't "chose" be a better word than "had"? I am suggesting this tentatively, as I know the wall reasonably well, and climbed Precarious recently with Justin Otlowski where we noted some chalk in interesting places. But how can you judge "the risk appetite for future ascensionists"? Isn't this very subjective? The point is that it sounds like you opened a new trad route with a couple of variants, plus another mixed route where you decided to put a bolt for safety considerations. (Have I read this correctly?) In this regard, how is the placement of your bolt - without prior consultation with the wider Organ Pipes climbing community - different from other folks cleaning vegetation from a route or adding rap anchors?

      "What should we do? is a very good question. Yes, "they may not be exactly the same lines". It would be interesting to see the two variations climbed one after another, one ascent trad style the other using the bolts. I wonder how many hold are shared and how many are independent. After all, there isn't a lot of room between Spitters (from the guidebook: "A serious undertaking. The scary wall between Bert's Fear and Just a Little Bit Longer. Climb diagonally L on dubious face holds to a flake in the middle of the wall (marginal pro). Move up to a small roof, pull around this into a groove, and then hard moves lead to a corner crack. Continue up wall to belay as for Just a Little Bit Longer. Abseil from tree.). If the answer to "what should we do?" is strip the bolts, then should that also happen on Neon God? If not, why not? (I wonder if the #'s 1 & 2 RP's that comprise the last six bits of protection on the top pitch have been tested with simulated factor two falls).

      There's a very big can of worms open here, isn't there? In closing, congratulations to both you and Hamish, and Roger, for spotting an opportunity for a quality route.

       Cheers

      Doug

       

      1. Yes you're right Doug, in my haste I created a slightly misleading statement. Choose/Chose is the only word that could be used in this context. Risk appetite is indeed subjective but as a general observation of society at large it seems unlikely that successive generations will develop a more voracious risk appetite. Hamish has decribed the route in full and put some background to our deliberations up there.

        Despite the fact that it could make me uncomfortable to admit it, we consulted but perhaps not terribly widely - again Hamish has listed those engaged. Despite this fact time will tell if we have made the appropriate decision regarding the placement of the bolt. I don't think that it is directly analagous to removing vegetation though as once the vegetation is gone there is no bringing it back. A bolt, however can be replicated, moved and removed with limited notable effect - there is little or no generational heritage that is lost by bolt removal, the same cannot be said about vegetation.

        Simulated factor 2 fall perhaps should have been put in inverted commas, we put a daisy chain into the piece and with a slack top-rope belay dropped onto the pieces - hardly scientific but we thought that this would reasonably emulate the hardest fall onto the pieces.

        Neon God, not sure. Where do we draw the line at protection that is considered reasonable? In the context of the Mountain, perhaps very small pieces such as 1 and 2 RPs that may be considered marginal by all but the very confident and aid climbers, and that are often not a part of a standard rack (I know, what is standard? more questions than answers) make it reasonable to have fixed protection? If it were just a question of which would be climbed more then it is a no brainer. But I think the most reasonable position, in the context of the Mountain where trad lines and bolted lines are widely established, is that where trad protection is reasonable it should take priority and where it is not then it may be reasonable to place a bolt (taking into account that if it is within reach of a trad line and affects the nature of that line then the position may not be reasonable - amongst other considerations).

        Ideally I'd like to see some others climb the lines to see what they think.  

  16. Jon Nermut AUTHOR

    please lets not start another flame war before hamish and roger have had a chance to talk...

    1. Fair enough John. But lets also remember that the rock belongs to everybody, and that a first (recorded) ascent is an offering, nothing more. If not an offering, why bother recording it, other than for egotistical purposes? We are - however divided or united - a community that shares a resource. So why not have at least an airing in the wider forum? Isn't that why you set up thesarvo? My post certainly isn't meant to be inflammatory (and I hope that neither Tim nor Hamish will find it so), merely to suggest that consistency and consensus are more important that ego.

      1. I'd like to see it aired. Ego is not really a big thing for Hamish and I as we have both spoken of not writing these and other climbs up. But we have because we enjoy this type of climb and we see that writing them up in some way may innoculate against changes in attitudes to this style of ascent. I haven't taken it as inflammatory. Although at risk of being perceived as inflammatory (and Roger this is in no way a personal attack), if the bolts impinge on the style of ascent on Spittoon or Bert's Buttermenthol then I would like to engage with Roger and remove them as these are such thoroughly enjoyable and safe trad lines at a moderately difficult grade.

  17. Apologies I got interrupted during my previous post...

    Bulging Buttress.

    Equipoise. 35m 23 **.  (50m to the chains of Black Magic)

    Climbs the arete right of Malignant Mushroom. Step right of the arete and ascend flake then arete with increasing difficulty and spaced protection (small cams) to the overlap at 20m. Difficult moves past this to expansion bolt then up and right to small ledge. Easier moves back on the arete lead to the upper section of MM. 

    Hamish Jackson and Tim Smith 7/Feb/13

    Acknowledgements: Jon Nermut for his generous attitude in loaning out his drill. Tony McKenny for his shared inspiration for the line - sorry you couldn’t be there on there on the day.

    Photo topos of these routes on Flange and Bulging Buttress will be added at a later date - I have been very busy at work and unable to get back to take such photos.

    Spittoon. No comment until I have spoken to Roger.

    Equipoise: A three star climb marred slightly by the unavoidable resting ledge out right 4m from the top of the arete, and the also by the last 15m if you choose to go to the chains. Named after my careful deliberation regarding the addition of the bolt  - I could do the route without it as I had cleaned the route and inspected it, but doubt I personally would have been able to on-sight it purely on trad (now I’m old and conservative, many others of course could have easily on-sighted the trad version despite the potential for 8m+ falls exiting the crux). I sought advice from a number of people with varying opinions regarding this issue - Al Williams, Jon Nermut, Dave James, Tim Smith, T McKenny. Ultimately I elected to add one, but just one, in deference to that style once widely embraced in Australia: the mixed climb. A style well suited to the organ pipes geology where occasional blank sections of rock are common between natural gear and fall lines are often clear. This climb is now quite user friendly, generally trad in character, still a bit spicy.

    Doug: I would be more than happy to carefully remove the expansion bolt if a number of people felt bolt free was more appropriate - I was originally inclined to this view myself but was convinced otherwise at the time by some well considered, contrary views. I gauged that the community was no longer debating whether any bolts were appropriate on the pipes so didn’t agonise over the loss of the wild purity of the existing form, however there is clearly widespread concern regarding the over-proliferation of poorly considered bolts placed near good natural protection; so I chose to be sparing with drill, placed the bolt out of sight from MM, and feel I have created a quality mixed climb. It is merely a statement of fact, rather than inflammatory pathos, to say that poorly considering bolting is increasingly undermining the enjoyment of trad. climbers (or those who enjoy both sport and trad) wishing to pursue their chosen style of climbing on the pipes and other mixed crags especially where bolts are in reach of existing trad routes. Removal of such bolts should be carefully considered in each case, and such an activity is an inevitable part of maintaining a diverse collection of quality climbs on one crag. Not every bolt placed needs to be kept just because the first ascensionist placed one there. This forum is growing towards such a process being possible here in Tasmania. I doubt the bolt on Equipoise will be questioned seriously in such a way by any who do the climb.

    Popularity. I don’t think popularity should be the only oracle on these issues. Many woeful things have been done in human history with democratic support due to poorly considered reasoning: popularity itself is not a virtue that can stand on its own. Maintaining diversity and being respectful to each others activities is far more important for sustaining an inclusive local climbing community. Indeed, it is my observation on my weekends out that trad climbing is actually still considerably more popular up the pipes than sport, despite the array of quality sport routes over the last decade, therefore any arguments against a new bold trad climb based on populist idealogy are somewhat flawed in the first place. I accept that bold trad/mixed climbs will be individually less popular than clip-ups, but history has shown that bold trad climbs are a source of inspiration to many. Therefore, this view needn’t be an elitist stance.

    1. I ain't getting into this one  but, Hamish, "now I’m old and conservative....." !!!!!

      What a statement. It must have been a late shift and you were feeling knackered or the years  have some how caught up with you while I was looking the other way. You are at the peak now, youth, that old feeling is actually called "being a grown up". When you get "old" you will know it, believe me - mind you, Peter Booth is 76 and still doing new climbs, so there is hope for all of us yet

       I will contact you when you are "old" enough to join the OCCG (Old Codgers Climbing Group) but you will have to wait at least another 15 years to be eligible....

      Yours, with my zimmer frame and nappies,

      Disgruntled Old Fart

  18. I agree with the bold trad lines being more inspiring than a line of bolts. No comment on spittoon as i havent been up there since but i know which i would rather.

    PLEASE do not put that info about gear in the guide book. If its a thin face route i would be taking all that gear anyway, and half the challenge is figuring it out. Why bother with a bold trad route if you know every piece and how good it is beforehand? If you want this info rap it.

  19. Thanks for your input Alex, Simon et al. There is a view among many Hobart climbers that climbs should be ‘user friendly’, so we included the gear notes above with this in mind. I respect your alternative opinion and know some of your record of inspiring leads of bold style. With this support from you (and Doug Bruce too) request that my description be truncated in the guide as this would actually be my personal inclination too if I was a punter for a repeat ascent (if Tim and Roger agree). I like ground up, bold onsight style more than anything else in climbing... on a good day anyway, on a bad day there’s nothing worse! I ascended Spitters in this style many years ago (?99) and have never forgotten it. It was then I dreamed of ascending Spittoon in the same fashion. When I came back to it this year I found I didn’t have the nerve, partly as there were actually many fine loose flakes coming off on my initial attempt... my family urged me not to kill myself on the climb so yes I did test two crucial pieces during my cleaning session so I was convinced I wasn’t being a maniac when it came to the ascent. It’s much cleaner now with many flakes gone. We still found our ascents quite exciting Alex, but yes, the ultimate onsight ground up ascents remain to be done and maybe you’re the one! Maybe you’ll find it all tame, and laugh at us, I say ‘fantastic' if so. I think you’re much fitter than either of us. BTW the variant coming up and across from Spitters makes it even more exciting if that’s your game. 

     

    1. I'd love to give it a crack but still have 6 months of rehab or so! I didnt mean to imply you doing the FA with rap inspection was a lesser experience, just now that its been cleaned and people know it is possible on gear/it goes then leave it at that and have a bold 22, much like other memorable routes around the state

       

  20. It is true, looking up at the lines you can see that the gear will be small and medium wires and cams, the positions to place all the gear are fine so we could truncate to "good placements where you most need them"

  21. On a pragmatic note: How do we stop this duplication in the future? My suggestion would be that the first documented ascent is the first ascent (could be a listing in the new routes forum even). This makes it  particularly important for trad routes to be written up as soon as they are done. Even a simple name, location and ascensionists would give others someone to contact.

    1. I'd suggest not bolting trad routes would avoid this!! I guess its an attitude thing for the aspiring FA team. First means first, regardless of who wrote what when.

      1. The point of this whole thread is that traddiness is open to conjecture. I was searching for a way to at least make it clear to others that a line had been done.

  22. i agree with Alex that standard thin gear doesnt need to be mentioned, an indication such as "small tcu's helpful" cant cover specific gear. Its standard fare it seems to assume most people have BD cams, and the other popular brands aren't far behind. Again I'd love to onsight it proper! 

    I might try and get up to climb it this week? Sounds like my kinda thing!! Again i dont think its all about the opinion of the FA team(s) as we've proven that you can still come to any conclusion on the FA, not always the best one. As for the bolt on Equipose, sounds totally legit! I do however disagree that bolts can be pulled/moved without more significant visual impact than a bush!!

    Ill hold off any judgement till i've climbed it but my gut feeling is I'd rather no bolts, but a lower-off to make it user friendly. Is there one in place now roger? 

     

    1. The Flange Fandango

      It's great to see this discussion evolving with people sharing their POV's without resorting to a slanging match. Very refreshing after some of the recent goings on.

      Tony and I were on the mountain this morning (it was just the sort of day that made me rejoice that I am no longer working) and made a side trip to the Flange to see first hand what the Train of Thought/Spittoon/Bert's Butter Menthol business is all about. I can't speak for Tony, but my impression was that Train and Bert's Butter share about 90% (maybe more?) of their holds and moves, and that Spittoon starts in the same place as those two but finishes to the left between them and Spitters, but there is a lot of shared climbing in the first half.

      From a bumbly's perspective, I'll put forward a few teasers. Re "traddiness": I'm sure that Roger didn't think he was bolting a trad line when he bolted and climbed Train of Thought.  He has a good eye for a line and I'm sure that he would have seen that some small placements could be possible. And, after all, people have been looking at that little bit of rock and thinking "I wonder if ..." for a long time now. Some very good climbers at that, I'd suggest. So, for Roger to put the bolts in to create a safe sports route where apparently no trad route existed - and install a rap station - was, as I see it, a creative act contributing to the range of climbs accessible to  people climbing at about that grade. It's always going to be too hard for me, so I've got no axe to grind, just a perspective.

      So, that's background. Re doing a bold, trad ascent of Spittoon: to be honest, this really only applies if you jump on a route at around your limit. If you haven't fallen off a 22 for a few years, how is it bold to climb one, even if it doesn't have runners at every every stance where you might be comfortable placing them? In the case of these new routes on the Flange, if you can get up things in the high 20's and can regularly onsight 25+ then I can't see anything particularly bold about getting on a 22 with small, spaced but secure gear. Good on you Hamish and Tim for cleaning off those shitty little flakes that have stopped people venturing onto the route ground up. Giving him the benefit of the doubt, I reckon Roger has also done some cleaning and a fair bit inspection over time too so you all deserve plaudits for seeing the possibilities and acting on them. Furthermore, from the ground, it doesn't look like there is going to be much in the way of solid gear so I reckon that after all this time it wasn't unreasonable to bolt the line. On the other hand, if Hamish had published his route description when he did it the bolts would probably never have appeared. Then Spittoon and Bert's Butter Menthol would probably seen traffic only from folks climbing much harder than the grade.

      The bolts are there now, so what to do? Is it possible to round up a bunch of climbers whose trad onsight grade is somewhere between 22 and 24 and, in isolation from each other, poke them at the routes to see what they think about leading them? It seems to me that that would be the true test of the style of the ascents and how they will settle out in terms of the way they are viewed by the climbing public. I agree completely with Hamish that the best style (and yes, that, not ethics, is the right word) of climbing is bold, onsight leading of trad routes. One of the best examples of that on the Organ Pipes that I can think of over the years was the dynamic young team of Sam Edwards and Garry Phillips jumping on Fife and Steane's great pitch "Left Out" when they were still green as grass. Given their level of experience at the time, that was bold.

      What happens with these routes is not that relevant to me personally as I'm never going to lead either of them; what does concern me is the resolution process and moving forward from here.

      But remember: it's only climbing.

  23. Ok so just got back from a fun afternoon climbing on the pipes. I onsighted Spitoon, then climbed Train of Thought. Unfortunately on ToT i broke a jug off while resting on it, narrowly missing my belayer (sorry Liz)!! Then I pulled back on and went to the top. My two cents:

    I usually warm up on routes about 22, Spittoon felt like a scary, bold undertaking that felt awesome to pull off. Felt run out on marginal gear, you wouldn't deck but potential to go a long way. What a climb though! One of the better experiences i've had up there this summer, felt fairly out-there to me. Had pretty pumped calves from fiddling, trying to get gear to fit! Would definitely recommend it, maybe not if 22 is your onsight limit.

    I then climbed ToT (one fall due to busted hold). My train of thought was mostly why didn't it start 5m lower and climb the obvious face into the line?! I thought it climbed a very different line, and i only used about 3-4 holds that i did on Spittoon. It does climb the Berts Butter Menthol finish, which i didn't think was harder than the Spittoon rooflet, just be more bold on gear, especially onsight!! Definitely worthy of the two stars.

    What do i think to do from here? Move two bolts. Where ToT climbs past the Spittoon traverse i would suggest moving one bolt down 50cm, and one up 50cm. This would make it very difficult to clip the bolts from Spittoon while allowing the traverse to be made in between the bolts so to speak. Again they climb very different lines, the bolts needed to be right of where ToT climbs due to the rock. The top two bolts could be removed as there is good gear and the climbing eases off. The lower-off is great and should definitely stay!! I think moving these two bolts would allow people to experience both climbs much as the respective FA teams intended. The #5 RP placement looked enhanced to me so can't really say I think its a better option than the nearby bolt. I also think it felt more like 23 than 24 around that bulge, even sans the hold i pulled off (lefthand sidepull).

    So i think the routes can live side by side. It's not a case of choose to clip the bolts or don't, they climb different lines. If you moved those two bolts i think it would maintain good style and minimise any more impact. I also think adding a lower start is the line i would have chosen for the face! As for saying if you regularly onsight 22 its not a bold climb, that's nonsense! I fit the your description but it didn't feel like a walk in the park! You still have to try, holds still break and gear still rips. The ground is just as hard!

     

     

    1. Good one, Simon. It looks like a bigger picture is starting to be developed which will eventually provide a real basis for sorting out the dilemma.

      Re your comment "As for saying if you regularly onsight 22 its not a bold climb", if you look back at my post you will actually see that what I said was if you "regularly onsight 25+ then I can't see anything particularly bold about getting on a 22 with small, spaced but secure gear". Given the mention by Hamish of the cleaning and pre-inspection - including testing placements - that had occurred it seems to me that Spittoon at least should be a fairly comfortable lead for folks leading well above the grade of 22, which I think applies to both you and Alex Lewis. I also assumed that the routes would both have ended up thoroughly cleaned of any suspect rock - those exfoliated flakes can be a real bugger. (Glad to hear that pulling one off didn't result in any injuries!) And  there's a big difference between a walk in the park and a bold ascent, isn't there?

      Cheers

      Doug

      BTW, the guys doing the track work are just about finished. The posts are going in and they expect to be done next week. I think that just about everyone will agree that having clear established routes has made a great difference to getting to and from the crag, especially those less travelled buttresses. Apparently some German climbers were up there recently and were very pleased to easily find the routes they wanted to do. And Tony McKenny and Al Beech did a new route straight off the link track across from Central Buttress to Great Tier on the weekend.

  24. Simon, great to have some first hand input from someone who’s done both - Tim and I did recognise the line 1-2m right, did it on TR, and we wondered if TOT ascended this. I’d like to go and have a look myself at the exact bolt placements but having spent time on that face I’m surprised one could have bolts that close to Spittoon without undermining the Spittoon experience but as I said I haven’t seen the placements. Simon could you also comment about the lower bolts on Tot - surely they change the first 5m of Spittoon  - which is not straightforward in itself?

    Alex- maybe you could go and try BBM!? It’s pretty pumpy getting the RP slotted and makes the 23 moves feel more like 24 I reckon. We feel placing that RP on lead is an amazing part of the BBM experience! The RP placement used to have a flake rattling about inside which we rattled and rattled until it came free.

    1. Two new routes at the neglected cliff of Devils Gullet, by Gerry Narkowicz and Doug Fife. The rock quality was found to be excellent, and the multi-pitch route required little cleaning - a lovely neat crack for 55m on the first pitch. Done in SHIT SIMON STYLE, rap cleaned and inspected

      http://climbnortherntasmania.wordpress.com/2013/03/07/swallowed-by-the-devil-new-routes-devils-gullet/

  25. I'm flattered that I'm never far from your thoughts Gerry! Your mullet brings style not even the SS can compare to. Think there should be Shit Simon Style with a Mullet, the mullet making up for all!

  26. Re: The bolts left of Bert’s Fear

    This addition was a mistake on my part as I genuinely thought that face had not been climbed.  I had several reasons for concluding this but they were wrong.  Had I known of the already existing climbs I definitely would not have added any bolts. 

    It has been suggested that the bolts may be on a different line to Spittoon.  Having talked to Tim and Hamish I think there is so much shared ground that this is not the case. 

    One thing that is agreed amongst all climbers is that the first ascentionist gets to make the call about the style of the route and how it is prepared.  For this reason I am happy for Tim and Hamish to decide, and do, whatever they set fit with the routes they have created.  Although everyone is free to express their opinion about what should now happen to the bolts, the final decision is up to Tim and Hamish to make.  In the end we will all abide by it; even those who disagree. 

    Although I didn’t know that a route had been done, I guess it is fair to say that I have let my enthusiasm get away with me: the sport version is exactly the sort of climb I love, after all.  In retrospect there were doubts and I could have done more research which may have saved us all a lot of bother.  Similarly, prompt write-ups are helpful for everyone, even if there isn’t any law saying you have to log-on immediately after the send. 

    On a personal level I’ve found all this a bit hard.  I’d like to thank Tim and Hamish for being so reasonable about it. 

    1. Hi All,
      What was the outcome of this debate?

      It seems to me that both parties were at fault to some degree. This being the case its a pretty harsh outcome for Roger if the bolts are to be removed from his route.

      I recognise that Train of Thought detracts from the experience of Spittoon and I'm strongly opposed to the idea of retrobolting trad routes but in this instance i wonder whether it would be better to recognise this situation as an accident, note it as such in the guide, and leave the two routes in place.

      I've spoken to a number of people and the outcome i've outlined above is a commonly held point of view.

      Cheers,
      Kim

       

    2. Firstly I’d like to thank Roger for engaging with Hamish and I on this matter, I think that we all feel that it has been dealt with in a constructive manner both online avoiding slander and in the real world face to face. Despite this I feel that we would all like to see this situation is not repeated.

      We established that all of us involved enjoy all types of climbing and that there are fabulous examples of sport climbs alongside traditionally protected climbs on Mt Wellington. However we did also agree that different people enjoy different types of climbs and come at development opportunities on the cliff from a different head space.

      In this instance Hamish and I have decided that removal of the bolts is the most appropriate course of action. This may not be considered appropriate by some (Roger among them) but there is no doubt that leaving the bolts detracts significantly from 2 extremely worthwhile lines.

      To leave the bolts on a naturally protected line

      a. sets a precedent and

      b. isn’t even a compromise as it suggests that those who wish to climb without the bolts should just deal them being there.

      At risk of seeming defensive (not the intent, merely stating fact) the only ‘mistake’ that Hamish and I made was that we did not immediately publish a description of the routes on-line. In another time routes were often done months before they were published and this was not seen as problematic.

      We plan to remove the bolts by first installing and removing a practice bolt in a boulder at waterworks with the aid of Simon Young, patch the resulting hole (including an attempt to colour match) before setting about work on the Spitters/Bert’s Buttermenthol wall. We asked that Roger also be involved but he politely declined the offer.

      1. Tim the compromise isn't between trad and bolted climbs. It is between your acknowledged 'mistake' and someone in good faith believing the face was unclimbed and bolting a route. 

        While we all wish this situation won't be repeated, it will be without any concrete process of avoiding it and we all will go through this same stupid debate again.

        I look forward to the glued up holes being a perpetual reminder of what it is to compromise.

  27. rock climbers are funneeeeeeee!

     

  28. I wasn't going to post anything on here because at the end of the day it seems like everyone's opinions just get ignored and people do what that want anyway.

    But i know there are lots of voices out there thinking the same way I am (I've spoken to them) but they won't say anything here cause the don't want to get involved in the politics of climbing for multiple reasons. Me, I've always made my options known so here they are.

    I think just because you did the first ascents doesn't give you ownership rights to make all decisions on that climb (or cliff) Who does? that's another whole can of worms but i would like to think that the community of climbers could talk about it and come to some kind of decision.

    I think removal of the bolts is going to create a trad climb for few and spoil a sport climb for many. I don't think this is a moot point. I've done my fair share of scary trad climbs and when i get to the top (without dying) the feeling is unforgettable, I'll forget half the sport routes i'll ever do so I can see why people seek out this kind of climbing and i respect that but i don't think it means that it should take away from other peoples climbing. Adam has climbed Neon God on gear now, does this means the bolts are going to get removed? NO but it's now opened up peoples train of thought that they don't need to use the bolts and they can decide either way. Don't get me wrong i don't think that trad lines should be bolted but obviously some peoples idea of trad lines is very different from others. I think this is because some peoples idea of what is amply protected is very different from others. Top rope a route till you've got it dialed then simulate some falls on the prefigured out gear till you're confident enough to lead it doesn't sounds like the kind of trad climbing I want to do.

    Anyway, just some thoughts. Happy climbing everyone (smile)


  29. The bulk of this discussion and resolution was undertaken off-line to avoid misinterpretation, slander, strawman arguments and to have constructive discussion between those most familiar with the climbs in question. There are details that are not included in this post.

    I would suggest that the best thing to do for those who wish to contribute to the specifics of this incident, as opposed to expressing opinion or a philospohical thought bubble, is to go do the route (with a thought to where gear is situated, spacing, size, safety etc) and talk to both parties involved in the different ascents - my contact details are readily available.  

    1. Sorry Tim, but I've already started a reply and would like to finish it. Also, not sure that just directing comments through you is valid in this case. We should be able to talk about this online without the "misinterpretation, slander, strawman arguments" that you flag. If certain individuals weigh in in that manner, then I would hope that the moderator would moderate them. And this is all about philosophy, so why not a "philosophical thought bubble"?

      1. I am not arrogant enough to suggest that it should go through me Doug, but what I am suggesting is that when people canvas for opinion that they ask people who are outside their friendship/climbing ability base and those who share a different view. I have not met most of the people who reply to my posts but I also know that none have sought to ask questions to gain a better understanding before espousing a certain course of action.

  30. This might be an opportunity for a real compromise, and perhaps to find a "third way".

    Tim, you have expressed the POV that it would be good to establish a set of protocols so that, where conflict arises, a structure is in place to resolve that conflict. I haven't time right now to go back through all of the productive discussion that you initiated, but it seems to me that a good starting point would be to listen to what the wider Hobart climbing community has to say. I'm not suggesting that simply a democratic vote is the way to solve this, but that weighing up what a wider range of opinions than just the two main protagonists might be useful.

    I tend to agree with Jed that " first ascents doesn't give you ownership rights". Mostly, we adhere to that general philosophy but, I think in most places, if someone botches the setting up of bolts on a sport climb, usually a member of the local community will go back and try to fix it. Likewise, if there is a dangerous loose block on a trad route or someone puts an absolute sandbag grade on a new route, general consensus will result in the route being regraded in guidebooks - be they online or print.

    Simon has commented that he thinks the routes could co-exist (although a later post somewhat muddies the waters) and asks why didn't the route start 5 metres lower? He also suggests pulling the top bolts on Train of Thought as there is natural gear readily available. I'm wondering if a reasonable compromise might be for Train of Thought to start lower in the middle of the face and move up and right, thus crossing Spittoon and BBM?

    Just a thought, but maybe a chance to make the most of a less than ideal situation.

    1. We have explored this in detail with photos, discussion and with Simon as a third party climbing the routes. Train of Thought and Bert's Buttermenthol share almost the entire route, Spittoon shares half the route and the variant that Simon did climbs a weakness that we looked at as a direct start to BBM before breaking back into Spittoon at the rooflet. We discussed a mixed route and moving bolts to accommodate both lines as compromise however this was not seen in favourable light as the climbs share so much ground. So yes we explored a lot of possibilities on the grounds of compromise.

  31. You're wrong Tim. Just because i haven't spoken to you does not mean i have not sought to ask questions. Actually I've spoken with loads of people just not you. I live with Simon and Alex who both totally disagree with my views on this matter but I did discuss it.

    1. Not what I mean Jed, you miss the point. I am not suggesting that you haven't had philosophical discussions triggered by this incident but there are no questions on this thread asking specifics such as where the lines are, where the bolts are placed, how close they are to natural protection, groundfall potential etc. all of which may be relevant to the attitudes towards the routes in question.

  32. Surely the original ascent style is the fallback position. This is the standard outside of the wider Hobart community.

    In Jed's Strawman of Neon God the FA was on bolts... thus it's a sport route. If Repeat ascentionists want to skip some or all bolts, bully for them. This is not a difficult concept for trad climbers who are accustomed to using more or less gear than other climbers on the same route.

    Back on the actual topic, a route was climbed in traditional style, thus it's a trad route. If this is not acceptable for some, then there are a few options:

    1. Go away and get stronger and better at placing gear, then try it.
    2. Go away, tail firmly between legs and admit to yourself you're not up for this one.
    3. Rap in, place gear on rap and sport climb on pre-placed gear.
    4. Rap in, set a top rope anchor and top rope it.
    5. If you must lead it because, well, saying you led it floats your boat, rap in, set a top rope anchor, tie a series of loops in a static at 1 metre intervals put your 'draws on it and clip away to your heart's content, knowing that you led it (woooooo!) and that you didn't have to deface the rock or spend any money on bolts that are going to end up being chopped.

    This is not directed at Roger, I think we have accepted that he innocently bolted it unknowingly, and that Tim and Hamish also took a little (but certainly not untoward) amount of time in recording. 

    Seems to me lessons learned on a few sides, and also a good example of problem solving face to face being nicer than online (smile)

  33. Dear all,

    This entry details the facts of the Spittoon case and some of my reasons for our chosen approach. I have been withholding a response to Roger’s statement until Simon Young, Tim and I practice the removal of a U-bolt ‘on the ground’ as we want to ensure a good job is done if the tot bolts are removed. I would like to thank Simon for his offer of assistance as I admit my expertise is limited in this area.

    I am personally very open to constructive, well thought-out comments on this matter as I recognise the bigger picture here is one of getting the various types of climbing styles to co-exist as best as possible on the mountain. I have particularly valued Simon’s input as he went to the trouble of trying to climb the routes in question, he also called Roger and myself to be well informed. It turns out Simon did a hard trad onsight ground up route to the right of our climbs and was confused at the time of commenting above! As other comments are now arising, I think it is important people know as many details of this case so their comments can be well informed, I apologise for any lack of clarity over the incident prior to this posting:

    1) I confirm that BBM and TOT were the essentially the same climb.

    2) Spittoon shares the same line until the upper roof where BBM goes right, and Spittoon goes direct through the roof as described. Simon’s new variant (not published yet) goes up right of S/BBM/TOT, and then goes through the roof like Spittoon. We considered this variant but thought it looked too run out, with likely deck fall potential. Good effort Simon! Topo photos will follow eventually!

    3) Spitton and BBM are run out, spacey trad climbs, but they are also safe and readily climbable in a ground up style now they have been cleaned. While Roger viewed this face as being suitable for sport, it is important to note that Spittoon/BBM are NOT extreme climbs ascending a blank face requiring a head point approach to be ascended safely. First ascents of difficult climbs frequently require inspection and cleaning, this doesn’t mean subsequent ascents require the same approach. Incidentally, I personally support people climbing head point style if they wish too and respect such choices as part of the great diversity of the climbing experience. 

    4) Roger was aware the route had been recently worked as he found our chalk on the climb. We had also spent considerable time cleaning the route for lead (as the face was actually more flakey than most faces on the pipes) - it is unclear whether Roger noticed our cleaning efforts for lead ascent but Simon readily found the evidence of our gear placements on his second ascent as our cleaning of rock around a particular placement was rather obvious (ref: his comment above). We had told Jon Nermut about our climbs. Roger waited two weeks to see if anyone posted the route on thesarvo but did not enquire with anyone (see further details above in Roger’s comment). These facts are very important to me in the formation of our plan to remove the bolts if possible, as it says to me that the incident cannot be viewed as 'purely an accident' as some have suggested above. 

    5) Roger, Tim and I have met and had an amicable discussion. This is a very positive event in itself given the considerable potential for acrimony. I remain respectful of Roger’s views even where they differ from mine. I urge others to meet face to face in similar instances. 

    6) We delayed our publication for 3 weeks as we were advised to get topo-photos done. Three weeks is not a long time in my view, but all the same publishing quickly helps avoid mistakes and conflict, especially if you leave very limited evidence of your ascent of a climb.  In this instance Roger was aware of someone had worked on the climb, but in other instances this may not be the case so trad climbers need to be especially mindful in such instances.

    6a) Further implications: I suggest that future trad climbers on the pipes, like sport climbers, might wish to work a route and this might create great trad climbs; furthermore they might wish to do this without the threat of someone bolting their climb. Therefore isn’t it reasonable in the future for trad climbers to try and communicate this if they wish too and that this to be respected? A standard approach should be discussed. Equally it would be very annoying for sport climbers if trad.ers claimed rights over wildly blank sections of rock just because they top-roped it once years ago and say they intend to head-point it one day. Such claims should be resolved on a case by case basis - it will not be a common event. More importantly, can we agree that climbers should avoid adding bolts or altering the rock without consultation if they think someone is working a route on that piece of rock even if that someone has not yet publicised their attempts? Roger has made it clear that he agrees with this point in principle. As an example, it may be that the chalk you see is because someone has ascended the face that very morning and not published the climb yet. The onus lies squarely on those bolting/altering the rock to inspect for evidence of attempts and enquire, since trad climbing a line requires no undoing, while bolting a trad route is difficult to undo and can ruin someone's trad climb for ever. For trad and sport to co-exist harmoniously there must be good will and attempts at communication in these cases. 

    6) Some bolts on TOT have been placed next to bomb-proof natural protection. This is currently contentious on the organ pipes; there are numerous other examples/precedents to discuss. Views on this vary greatly. Roger prefers all bolted climbs, we prefer mixed climbs if natural gear is available, however this difference of opinion did not dominate our discussion together as it was not seen by either party as being the crux of this particular incident (since even the bolts not next to the natural gear also undermine the S/BBM climbs). The vast majority of climbers apparently view this cliff as one where sport, trad and mixed can co-exist. The question is how to they should co-exist, and this is where opinions vary.  I suggest that the local climbing community could attempt to resolve this constructively in a forum whereby the event is well publicised and inclusive.

    7) There is an interesting discussion arising regarding the rights of a new router and the rights of the climbing community over defining the style of a climb. This debate may lead to a situation in which bolts could be added to existing climbs and equally could be taken away from sport climbs after community consultation. However, this debate is in its infancy and is far from resolved and I personally have not resolved my views on this issue. In any case, TOT was NOT an example of this process, it was a mistake, there was no consultation. In addition, Roger has apologised politely and decided to respect the tradition that the first ascensionist has the final say - we did not force this view upon him in any way. Therefore, we do ask others to respect our decision in this case given the very reasonable process that we have been through with Roger. 

    I look forward to a constructive approach to the remaining issues that users of the pipes have pointed out as being as being unresolved. I see a much shared ground among the local climbers, especially from insights gaining during this episode.  I hope we can respect our differences, and work towards sharing our fantastic local crags in the most positive and inclusive way possible.   

    Hamish

     

     

    1. Great post, Hamish. I think you've pretty well covered it! (thumbs up) Hopefully you will be able to remove the bolts without excessively scarring the rock.

      BTW, I support your position on mixed routes. It would be good to see more of these on the Pipes. (On another note, there is at least one route on the Pipes that was claimed as a top-rope ascent that I reckon is crying out to be retro-bolted.) I absolutely agree that if there is good, solid gear to be had on an otherwise bolted route then the placement of bolts should not be placed just for the convenience of not having to carry a selection of trad pieces along with the number of quick-draws required, especially if reasonably continuous sections take gear. Most climbers who get on sport routes seem to think that it's good to know how many clips are needed on a route, maybe the same should apply to the range of trad gear required when describing what's needed on mixed routes. I've seen this principle applied quite a lot in other places.

      It's a grey area, but if a route only takes one or two (obscure?) pieces then maybe it would be okay to make it pure sport. However, if there is a 3 metre or more section of rock that can be safely protected with natural gear then it seems like an affront to the rock architecture to put bolts in that situation.

  34. May I add that I had not seen the posts from this morning when I entered my lengthy post above, apologies if I doubled up on some points already clarified. 

  35. well i guess i should write this up before its bolted! (wink)

    on the face L of Berts Fear:

    Mediocracy * 22 R 25m

    Start at the base of Berts Fear. Climb the crack line, staying L of Berts Fear. Follow line up and across face to finish as for Spittoon. Take small gear, try to hide your disappointment when most of it wont go in. Not one for the faint-hearted. Climbed in SSS.

    FA Simon Young & Liz Oh, 4/3/2013

    1. Nice one simon( and lizzy)! All in all a good story behind this route! good name too.

    2. Jon Nermut AUTHOR

      The interesting question - did thinking you were repeating Hamish's route make onsighting a new chop route in SSS style less terrifying?

  36. I don't think so, i kinda realised something didn't seem right when the chalk stopped, there wasn't much gear and i was removing small micro-flakes from the only spots that seemed likely to accept gear. While the routes have been 'cleaned', holds that others and myself used will not remain on that cliff for much longer IMO. Definitely one to pull down not out on! It was definitely more a case of a bumbling muppet than anything. The dumbest part of the whole endeavor was climbing past perfectly bomber U-bolts!!

  37. Tony has asked that I add this to the my description of Spittoon, but actually it may be best put in with Spitters

    "Alt start: from the start of JALBit longer head up steep wall to a large cam slot, then right to ascend very loose flakes which improve with altitude. Also a good way to start Spittoon."

     

     I first went up this way when I trembled up Spitters for the first time back in the 90's  ...I believe others may have done the same  sometime prior.When I first tried Spittoon ground up I went this way but bailed further up. We subsequently decided to come in from right as the rock is SO much better.

  38. Here’s another one on the pipes. Just a little climb, somewhat lacking any majestic qualities, but nice climbing and recommended to easy/moderate grade climbers who find themselves nearby given there aren’t too many well protected grade 16 face climbs on the pipes. 

    Aperitif 35m 16*

    Climbs the east face of the small buttress that is passed en route to the base of Avalanche Couloir (about 50 m passed the turn off to Black Magic ledge, and well before southern crest). Start at the arete and climb the weakness trending rightwards up the face past numerous horizontal cracks (good cams) to eventually reach across (R) to some flakes that cap a section of orange rock (crux). Up flakes to large ledge at ~ 18m. Lower off here (from tea-tree scrub); OR climb on up cracks above and left (old style, another ~ 18m to second ledge). Abseil from scrub, or escape via roped scramble to SSSI track above - less recommended. 

    Dave James (and me) Jan 2013

    Sorry about the rather poor photo. It is taken from the A/ Couloir  access track and shows the relative position of B.Magic Buttress looming to the north (+ Dave James in action). 

     

     

    1. New Route at Teapot Rocks near South Sister. Strange Brew (24) , a terrific face climb with 13 bolts. Teapot Rocks is developing into a good little sport climbing venue with 9 routes graded between 19-25.

  39. On Lower Great Tier

    Prevarication  35m 17

    Don’t’ be put off by the greenery, the  rock is much better than it looks. Start in the corner cack behind the trees at the LH end of the wall, 3m L of Kabling.

    Climb the crack and step L at top, continuing straight up the main weakness to an orange fin of rock and the indecisions of Prevarication Wall.  When you have made your mind up, climb up and slightly R (crux) to the corners above. Finish over the blocks at a large ledge on the edge of the main Great Tier access ramp. Walk off.

    T. McKenny, O. Gervasoni, A Beech, April 2013

  40. Revival of the Fittest  50m  15    (High Court Cliff, Cape Bruny)
    The thin crack R of Philadelphia Freeway (PF).
    Harder at the start. High up, to avoid grass in the corner, move L onto the wall and climb the crack immediately R of PF.
    As with all climbs on this cliff, take care with loose rock at the top.
    P.Robinson, C.Rathbone    4/2013

  41. Here’s some more new stuff up on the mountain from the summer just gone (RIP):


    You Are Not My Friend  15m  17

    But a big one helps protect the start. Start at short wide crack in a corner L of Sweepings. Up this to a ledge then continue up the steep flake crack. Belay in the back below the blocky chimney. A short and easy pitch leads to the top.
    D. Rollins, C. Allen, Dec 2012.


    Conjunctivitis  58m  22

    Links Ophthalmia into the upper half of the wall to the R for a long pitch. Climb most of pitch 2 of Ophthalmia until just below the final bushes. From here, traverse R to arete and then head up this and the face on the R to the major overlap. Bouldery moves through finger crack in bulge lead to a widening hand crack and a stance on the arete (#4 Camalot). A reachy move R gains the airy face which is climbed to the top.
    D. Rollins, L. Besnard, Mar 2013.

    Am still working on a potential route up this wall that begins up the lower half... but I think the above route as described isn’t a bad way to approach the upper half of the wall.


    Gladiator  35m  21

    A distinctive line on the L side of The Arena, broken by a few ledges. Start on a broad sloping ledge at the base of an open corner L of Catacomb. Climb the corner to the first ledge, where an awkward seam and face continues past an alcove to a stance. A thin finger crack past an old peg leads into an easier hand crack, which finishes at a belay ledge with a tree. Double ropes are handy. A short pitch of thrutching up the back leads to the top of the cliff.
    N. Deka, T. McKenny, Apr 1990. FFA: D. Rollins, J. Jane, Feb 2013.


    Emo  20m  16

    A couple of lines R of Punk is a hand crack passing an alcove halfway up. Rap from the slab at the top of Exit Entry down into Rockaway Gully and belay in small niche with a spike. Climb the line to the top.
    D. Rollins, D. James, Mar 2013.


    Peaches En Regalia  15m  20

    The first line L of Adolf Builds A Bonfire. Some flared and quirky jamming, with an interesting move near the top.
    D. Rollins, A. Shorten, Apr 2013.

     

    And one at Ragged Jack:

    Bomba Sirt  40m  17

    The line L of Quinns with a large hakea at the base. Climb up the hakea, pull into the hand/fist crack and follow this to a small ledge at 10m. Up wider crack above past an assortment of holds, chockstones and horizontal breaks. Finish up short squeeze chimney and belay in large alcove just below the top.
    Dean Rollins, Lisa Boyle, Feb 2013.

  42. To the R of Thirsty Thirties is a rearing, overhanging wall bristling with roofs. The next climb threads an unlikely path through the difficulties to finish on the ledge at the beginning of Janzoon.

    ** Skyfall             42m       20

    A cracker of a climb, bold, steep and sustained. Start as for Thirsty Thirties, at the foot of the short wall. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HKoqNJtMTQ)

    1. 7m         12           Climb the wall to the big ledge.
    2. 35m       20           From the ledge, climb the RH end of the wall, 3m R of the Thirsty Thirties crack, to a hand traverse back L to an overhanging layback crack. Climb through the roof, and follow the steep incipient line up with spaced protection to below a large open corner below a massive roof. Up the LH arête to an exhilarating hand traverse back R under the roof to a ledge below another open book corner. Thin bridging up the corner to a runner placement and welcome jugs. Finish up and L to the top of the wall and the belay ledge. Descent: abseil from tree, 42m, climb Janzoon or Tsing Gai or climb  back down R to the main Great Tier access ramp.

     

    T. McKenny, P. Robinson, April 2013.

  43. **No Name Yet  25m 26ish

    Climbs Vapour Trail to just below the anchors, then head right up the steepest part of the crag via a rad boulder problem.

    Garry Phillips 20/4/13

  44. The old codgers have been out playing again in the autumn sun. Sooooo much better than working (smile).

    ★ ★   Indian Summer             50m     16

    An entertaining line on good, steep rock.   Start at the toe of the spur, just to the R of Breaker Spur.

    1. 21m 15. Climb up the horizontals and then straight up the face of the spur to below a small roof. Hand traverse R to belay in the corner.
    2. 16m 14. Follow the crack, with its hidden surprises, and pull up over the jammed block. From the RH end of the platform climb up and R to DBB.
    3. 13m 16. Climb the crack on the L till a move can be made out onto the LH arête, keeping the hollow sounding flakes well to the R. Exposed climbing up the arête and wall to belay on a fin of rock.

    Descent: Rap from fin (sling, 12m) back to the 2nd belay, then to the bottom (37m).

    T. McKenny, P. Robinson (alt) April 2013.

    .

    1. Jon Nermut AUTHOR

      >>> The old codgers have been out playing again in the autumn sun. Sooooo much better than working

      Screw you tony!

      (now there's a good name for a route)

  45. Indian Summer - Breaker Spur.   Here is another pic. of that area.

  46. The old project in the Chasm on Northern Buttress has been done:

    ** Mira Mira  33m  28  (fully bolted)
    "...on the wall, who's the fairest of them all?" The line of bolts on the R side of the chasm which links up to Vanity. A funky, bouldery start leads to a lovely technical head-wall. Stick-clip the first bolt and avoid the temptation to bridge across to the other side near the top of the chasm. Finish as for Vanity up to DBB. Grade to be confirmed.
    N. Perndt, April 2013.

  47. ** Creeping death direct 35m  20


    Rap in as for Beowulf, swing right around the corner and belay on small triangular shaped ledge. Great climbing up crack system to meet creeping death under the roof. Traverse left under the roof on lay backs. Get a knee bar in the roof and look down at your belayer dodging the waves. Finnish directly up the face.

    Simon Bischoff and Dean Rollins, 2012. 

     

  48. Cairn Column new route.    Probably have another go at climbing it in style next season.

    No Beginning and No End                            20m       19M0                                                     Cairn Column

    A crazy line starting at a seam half way up the south side Cairn Column.

    Rap  40m from the top of Cairn Column to an airy hanging belay at the base of a thin crack on the south side of the column.  Probably safer for the belayer to stay attached to the abseil line.

    Pleasant climbing up the face and thin finger crack to a ledge. Follow the fist size crack until it widens to a crux 3-4metres from the top. A fairly strenuous lead for old timers. DBB at a platform on ‘The Brush Tail Extension’. Exit by prussik or climb the last pitch of Brush Tail (28).

    P.Robinson, K.Robinson                April 2013

    Photo shows the line and Kim and Claire on Claire’s Tularaemia(25). Roger’s new route Anomia(24) is on the lower buttress immediately to the left


  49. Companion route to Skyfall, shown in black

    *Quantum of Solace 32m 22

    Precarious and pumpy face climbing up an anti line. Start as for as for Skyfall.

    1. 7m 12. Either climb up the short wall or scramble easily up the jungle on the R to the big ledge.

    2. 32m 22. As for Skyfall  but at the start of the leftward traverse climb straight up the face to gain a series of overhanging horizontal breaks. Load up on good gear, then blast onwards up the seams past a bolt to the big roof. Make a long stretch up and  R to a bucket on the lip, clip the bolt and cut loose to muscle up to the ledge. Climb a metre or two of the final corner of Skyfall, before moving delicately L onto the arête past another bolt and up. Take RPs and micro cams.

    O Gervasoni, T McKenny, 11 May 2013.

  50. New Organ Pipes climb

    Dal Nulla             35m  14                 Breaker Spur Area

    The corner cleft 2m R of Smoke and Mirrors. Worth a look. Traditional so watch out.

    Bridging and good holds lead past a jammed block to a bulge and short exit chimney. From the ledge head L and up to the Black Magic rap bolts.

    Phil Robinson, Chris (Basil) Rathbone 25-05-13

     

  51. Jon Nermut AUTHOR

    Garry climbed this project at Fingal:

    **Unnamed17 26ish 18m
    Starts 7m left of Into the Void.
    Ramble up the slab.  Then do a techo sequence of moves to get into the roof.
    Powerful moves through this and the corner above.  Traverse left and up to the chains of Master of Puppets.
    F.A. Garry Phillips 2/6/13
  52. Jon Nermut AUTHOR

    Keen guide watchers would have noticed the new  Eldon guide. If not, check it out, there are 12 new routes there plus 4 projects on a couple of small sandstone buttresses about 50min from Hobart, with a pretty easy walk. On public land too.the routes have been done by myself, Dave Humphries, Guy Abel and Luke Einoder.

  53. New Route on Alchemy Wall?! 

     

    Hermes Direct Finish 25m 23ish **

    Climb Hermes to two-thirds height then head direct up the blocky corner (crux) and thin crack above. 

    Alex Lewis Aug 2013

  54. Jon Nermut AUTHOR

    A new one at Sphinx Rock :

    ★★ The Honey Gobbler 10m 22 4Þ
    Takes the arete above where the walking track meets the cliff. The first bolt is a high stick clip to protect the bouldery start. Head up the arete then left at the top to the DBB above Duckpond.
    Jon Nermut, Dave Humphries, Sep 2013.

  55. A new route on Lower Great Tier:

    Scrambled Legs                                20m       16                           Lower Great Tier

    The buttress R of Zephyr.      RPs are handy.

    From the track climb the wall to a ledge, the short face above and directly up the steep buttress (crux) on small holds to a mantelshelf finish and easier ground. Top out below Schizophrenic and scramble off R. 

    Phil Robinson, Chris Rathbone   Sept 2013

  56. Jon Nermut AUTHOR

    Another one on the far left end of Sphinx Rock:

    Akhenaten 9m 20
    The nice slightly overhanging face left of the Cheops arete. 2 bolts to DBB.
    Jon Nermut, Sep 2013.

    1. Another one on Sphinx.
      Short, Sharp and Shit Scared 10m 23 4Þ
      Fun and games left of SSSH. The fun, start on the rock as for SSSH but head left to the pockets. The games begin after the fourth bolt, suck it up and clip the anchors. Please leave the draw for the next ascent.
      Dave Humphries Oct 2013

      1. did u say free quick draw for the 2nd ascent (wink)

    2. Jon Nermut AUTHOR

      this is the route just left of Akhenaten:

      ★ 1. Charles' Climb 9m 22 3Þ
      The LH line - through the overlap. 3 bolts to DBB.
      Jon Nermut, Oct 2013.

  57.  

    Dauntless Point

    hi team here is a description and topo for a route Tim and i did nearly a year ago at Dauntless Point.

    I've also drawn in the route for Dauntless and the access abseil. the first abseil for dauntless goes to a largish spike/boulder with a few slings- looking at the photo i couldn't quite work out where it is. Do people think i suggested the correct place? Also note the last couple of times i've climbed Dauntless i have done it in two long pitches. This requires a decent ability to avoid rope drag and perhaps paradoxically a tolerance for  climbing with  a bit of rope drag. I've also never been quite sure if i go quite the right way on the final pitch- traversing left and stepping off the slab and then up the left facing corner.... Do others  go more direct without such a leftwards traversing component and not stepping down off the slab into said corner?? Any other suggestions?

    This would appear to be the first topo photo of  the route Dauntless (15) which may inspire some more ascents of a great little adventure climb. Don't be discouraged but it is a touch runout in places and the rock quality should always be treated with some suspicion. It would be a very intelligent decision to wear a helmet here and the converse would also hold true. Also consider that once you pull your ropes from the abseil you are reasonably committed. Retreat is either climbing up, or a long swim. No one will hear you scream.

    Wu wei   

     I haven't done much in the way of topos before so let me know if it looks ok or if it could be improved?

    also, if anyone climbs the route subsequently please consider the suggested length of the pitches and whole route as approximate and be cautious with loose rock.

    Wu wei      100m 14

    1. 30m. Start at major horizontal crack/ledge 15-20m above the sea. Climb cracks and features on slab for several metres befotre traversing right to  a brief bulge/steepening and continue straight up slab to belay at the  base of right facing corner feature (not the giant left facing corner a few metres to the right), a more direct start would be possible but a touch harder.
    2. 30m Climb corner passing small roof on the right and continue up next corner climbing right onto the next slabby wall about where the corner opens up with a lttle vegetation on your left. belay on the next rubble covered ledge.
    3. 40m. Climb up and right , then climb left through weakness in 'rooves' and up poorly protected but easy slabs to the top. It could be handy to leave 10-15m of static rope here to make a decent anchor.
      Tim Whelan and Dave James 19/12/2012

    10-20m of static is recommended to make an anchor at the top of this route and/or to make an anchor at the top of the abseil access to Dauntless.

     If by chance anyone has climbed this route before, please let me know and we can add details as appropriate.

     

    wu wei topo 2.jpg

    1. Jon Nermut AUTHOR

      Looks good Dave. If you attach the original image as well, I'll put it in he guide with the standard symbols

      are any of the other routes visible on that photo?

  58. cool, cheers Jon. Dirty equation would also be viewable in the image. i think i can work out where it goes but i wouldn't like to draw it as i haven't done it. Inferno is not visible although the little spike on the left hand side of image is wheer it starts. Hamish might remember where Dirty equation goes... Has anyone repeated it?! it looks freaky!

    I attached image-hyperlink below displayed pic above. is that what you meant? or would u like the original without the lines so u can redraw more formally??

  59. Jon Nermut AUTHOR

    yeah the original so I can it can be in the same style as the others in the guidebook - we are trying to get all the topos to match.

    you could draw it yourself with the new tools if you can work them out: see: New guide feature - online topos 

    otherwise just attach the original unadorned photo and it will take me 2 minutes to do in the new style 

  60. wu-wei.jpg

    yep that does make more sense.

    i've been using 'betacreator'. free online software. its pretty fun.

    if u don't mind redrawing, go for it.

    i've got a few more things i wanna draw up so i'll play with the thesarvo tools next time.

    1. Jon Nermut AUTHOR

      Can you check it pls: Mount Brown

  61. the last 20m of the route u have unwhittingly shifted to the right a few  metres. Otherwise looks good!

     

  62. Jon Nermut AUTHOR

    Two new routes at Neika middle tier today:

    ★★ 33. Chucky Chuck 10m 18 4Þ
    Probably the best easier climb at Neika. Start at the shallow crack to the R of Baltoro Blizzard, head up left on good holds.
    Jon Nermut, Dec 2013.

    ★ 34. No Name Yet 10m 19 4Þ
    Start as for Chucky Chuck, head R and layback up the seam. At the top head back L to the same anchor.
    Dave Humphries, Dec 2013.

  63. Here's the description for a new route I put up in 2012 on Precipitous Bluff with my brother. I am also going to draw up a rough topo, once I work out how to create one.

    The Paddy Line 18 370m+

    The route follows what is the easiest-looking line up the main face of PB, and starts up an obvious left-facing corner crack (the main face doesn’t have many obvious lines) about ten minutes after the track from the New River Lagoon hits the cliffline.

    1. 40m Follow the corner crack into a chimney, then move up and R to a small ledge. 2. 40m Step L then head straight up to a big ledge at the bottom of a cirque, climb the R side of the cirque until you hit a ledge and belay. 3. 25m From the R side of the gully cross over to the L, climbing until you hit a ledge below a face-crack and distinct right-facing corner. 4. 20m Climb a crack R of face crack, which has a few tricky moves, the up to belay stance. 5. 45m Follow crack and chimney, which leads to a nice corner crack. At the top of the corner, make a couple of tricky moves up an arete, making a belay just above. 6. 40m Up and L to a vegetated corner, climb this for ten metres, then head slightly up and R another 30m to another belay ledge. 7. 35m You are now on a distinct ridge/arete. Follow this up until you hit the base of a wide crack, climb this to the top then make a belay on the next ledge up (at the base of another crack). 8. 25m Climb the crack until you are at the top of a pinnacle. 9. 100-150m Scramble L up the sloping ramp of scoparia and pineapple grass for 50m to the arete. Scramble around the arete then up the other side, roping up for a short pitch that leads through a distinct window in the arete. Unrope and scramble another 50 or 60m to the summit of PB, which you finish almost directly beneath. Lachlan & Ross Taylor (alts), 14/2/2012


    That same summer we also freed Titan on Geryon. I have just modified the original description and included grades for all the pitches that were originally aided. 

    Titan 19 365m

    Described in Chris Baxter’s guide as a ‘scrubby monster that will go free to an offwidth master’, Titan actually went free to a pair of punters who found it to offer generally excellent and scrub-free climbing (definitely mossy, though) up a powerful line. 1. 48m As for Orion et. 2. 45m To upper R edge of scree. 3. Step right and up for 18m. Go diagonally R below a smooth wall and up a short corner. go to a steep crack which is climbed. Go L to a good ledge. 4. 24m Down L then up to a corner. Climb this for 5m to a scrubby ledge. Go 3m L to next corner which is climbed for 5m. Exit R to scrubby ledge below large corner. 5. 26m Was 17 A2, now 18/19. Sustained climbing past three (now rotten) wooden pegs to ledge on R, the single bolt anchor still looks remarkably good. 6. 21m Was 13 A3 now 18. Rather than aiding the face on L, climb straight up the corner crack and straight through roof above to second small stance. 7. 24m Was 13 A2 now 19. Climb line on R for 8m then climb diagonally right for 5m to a ledge. Easily R to next corner, which we climbed around by stepping R and doing a hard move into a corner then back up L to a ledge. 8 & 9 we linked together into one 50m pitch. Was 13 A2 now 17/18. Climb corner above to bushy ledge. The corner above is followed to a sloping ledge on the L. Step right, climb small corner on L, go R to V corner, which is climbed. Climb crack on R to stance. 10. 21m Was 13 A2 now 16. Climb corner to ledge on R. 11. 12 m V corner to stance on L. 12. 24m Was 15 A2 now 19. Climb corner above and move R at 6m. Go up R corner to roof, traverse R past a terrifying loose-looking block you can’t avoid pulling on (make sure you belayer is not directly below you). Climb up past an old bolt moving R, before moving easily up to a good ledge. 13. Glory ramble to the summit of the Foresight. Roland Pauligk, Rob Taylor (alt), Jan 1968. Freed Ross & Lachlan Taylor, February 2012.

    1. Jon Nermut AUTHOR

      Thanks Ross, have updated the guides.